All Questions and Answers

Answer by WR: I'll copy your question on to our Q&A group and perhaps one or more will have good advice for you. We (here in the high desert) have very different soil and climate than you but some basic principles are the same. (I used to live in NJ and have good memories of visiting Bucks County.)

Answer by JH: First you should address the legality of your plan. If permissible, then evaluate the soil underneath the shale - heavy clay I am guessing. If it is clay, rather than top it with compost it would be better to dig it up and mix with sand and compost, possibly repeating the process as necessary. That could make a lovely resting place. It’s what I suggest based on my former stomping grounds of shale/clay soil near you in Ohio.

Answer by JZ: Great that you are preparing for your future burial.  I agree with WR's assessment. The picture you sent is verdant!  I am originally from rainy New York State.

Your climate: abundant rain/snow provides plenty of moisture for decomposition to occur naturally. However, if you are motivated and capable I think that there would be no harm

In adding soil amendments in the burial site area. Guessing that compost would be the easiest amendment to add. If shale obstructs your progress in your burial area you may have to slowly break it up as you add amendments.

Answer by BB: I assume that you have chickens, unless you got the chicken poop from a friend.  If you do have chickens, they will go crazy for the grubs.  Just turn them loose on the compost - spread out a bit so that they can get to them all. I suspect that within half an hour your grubs will have disappeared. Hope this helps.

Answer by JZ: It appears that you have June Beetle larvae (grubs) in your compost - common in our area. They are decomposers mechanically helping to breakdown organics in the pile. Here are my thoughts:

* Yes,  remove them manually, then euthanize them, then add to your next batch as organic material. Or bury dead carcases in the soil.  Or, as BB suggests let your chickens have at them.

* If you spread out small amounts of your finished compost on a tarp, then the larvae will be

easy to capture / remove.

* They are best removed as they may overwinter in the soil, then complete transition to adults

in another season.

* This is just one of those chores that we composters have to do. The end result is worth the effort.

Keep up.  Best.

Answer by JH: And just to add another point, your rose bushes are a favorite food of June beetles so be sure the compost you place around or near them is grub-free.

Answer by PB: I don’t have chickens so I feed them to the wild birds that come to my yard by putting them on the top of the block wall.  Just use a screen which you can buy or make to filter them out from the compost.

Response from Questioner: Thank you all for your responses! I do have chickens, so it sounds like I’ll need to build a chicken tractor of sorts and put my girls to work! Thanks again.

Answer by JZ: I suspect that what you are describing are June beetle larvae - you could do a google search for pictures of them. To the best of my knowledge they are not harmful to the decomposition process, but would be a part of the compost food web.  You would have to research their life cycle.  If  you find them bothersome just remove them, then euthanize them in soap water,  then put them back into the operation as a nitrogenous addition.

A little more research on your part is necessary to ID the larvae.  Then you could get back to us

if you have more questions. Let us know if we can be of more help.

Answer by RR: Other Master Composters may also respond with varying opinions. I personally love seeing the grubs in my compost. They are part of the food web that aids the decomposition process. They also help me  assess when my compost is “finished.” As long as the grubs are there, I know there is more undecomposed organic matter in my compost. The grubs will die off as the food source in my compost gets consumed. Happy composting.

Answer by PB: Grubs can be a problem in lawns; but, as RR responded, they are a form of “beneficial” in a compost pile.  I don’t have any experience in humanure composting as I live in a subdivision where the houses are close together; however, I occasionally find grubs in my larger raised bed in the spring when I am preparing it for planting.  I just pick them out, put them on the block wall and feed them to the birds (the robins particularly like them and tend to leave any earthworms I uncover alone before they burrow back down because they have this other tasty food source).

From original questioner: Thank you for the reassurances. I'll leave them in my compost pile and see what happens next spring.

Answer by RR: I agree.  I said I like the grubs in my compost, but they don’t belong in the garden.

Answer by JZ: Thanks for getting back to us. Just my offering. If when you collect / harvest your finished compost in the future you find any grubs, then they should be euthanized. Then you may add the dead grubs to your next batch. Live grubs should not be added to garden soil.  I’m guessing the pics which you sent are June Beetle larvae.

Answer by BB: As to the hammer mill, I don’t think that it would work. Feed is very brittle when it comes out of the drying process and breaks easily.  Most woods has some moisture and is composed of long fibers and very likely will mash the wood and, even more likely, gum up the machine. If you do try it, let us know how it worked out.

Answer by JZ: Other colleagues may respond to your question. I have no experience with the equipment which you mention, so cannot comment on its use. You might contact Soilutions.net for an answer.  They have experience with some composting equipment.  Best.

Answer from JV: Perhaps I could meet you at the site, then evaluate the situation. Send me some dates, times and address for your garden, then we’ll work it out.

Answer by JZ:  Your question will be received by a few of my colleagues, who may also respond.

Bravo on your composting effort ! Here are my thoughts:

I have been using this same technique successfully for several years. Note that I only drill holes in the bottom and around the lower edge see pics of Homemade Bins under Composting Info in our website main menu. What you first added 6 months ago may now be finished product at the bottom of bin. You may scoop it out with a hand trowel or dump the contents on a tarp then separate out the decomposed material. Undecomposed material goes back into the bin.  See next paragraph.

A variety of insects are a natural part of this and other composting containers. They are detritivores so they assist in the decomposition process.

So, in my opinion cockroaches are OK in the bin.  They will scatter when you collect finished product from the bin. Finished compost looks like dark chocolate cake crumbs.

Please let me know if this has been helpful.   Compost on.

Answer by JZ: Important question. I would encourage your to read herbicide fact sheets from the National Composting Council. There is a link to that site on our Persistent Herbicides page under Composting Info in our website menu.

Persistent residual broadleaf herbicides, if there are any in the manure will usually only affect broadleaf plants, but not grasses. There are a variety of persistent herbicides in use.  The only way to know if horse fodder is contaminated with them is by going back to the farmer who grew the horse food.  And to find out which specific chemical was used.

My understanding is that it requires 2-3 years to biodegrade some of these herbicides. In our area a well managed composting setup may produce a finished compost in about 12 months, depending on what process was used. So if you are concerned that your manure is contaminated, then after it has decomposed in your composting setup, “cure” it  for 2 more years. Pile it and expose it to air and sunshine. You may use a light tarp as a drape on top of pile, uncover from time to time to expose to sun and air.   That should allow for the biodegradation of any residual persistent herbicides.  Others may have other recommendations for you.

Let us know if this has been helpful and it you have more questions.

Answer from JZ: Great to hear from Trinidad.  Other colleagues may also respond to your question.

I think that you have well considered the variables in your hot process setup. Actually 140F,  in my opinion is good enough, why this does not maintain beyond 2 days may be related to these variables: 

A.  Air / oxygen: does your pile contain coarse bulking material throughout ? Bulking at regular intervals in a hot pile helps convective air flow a" chimney effect" in the pile, allowing it to “breathe". Hot process is high microbial energy process therefore needing/using oxygen. Heat in the pile comes from microbial enzymatic breaking of the carbohydrates bonds formed in plant photosynthesis.” Fire" burns hotter with oxygen. More microbes, more respiration, more oxygen used. More nitrogen required for rapid microbial proliferation.  See B, below. See our brochure, specifically pp.6-7.:

docs.nmcomposters.org/composting-in-the-desert-2018.pdf

B. C:N ratio of your mix - try enriching to 1:1 by weight. As you know microbes require nitrogen for reproduction / cell wall formation. You might try making your final pile mix at 50:50.  For every part carbon add an equal part nitrogen for a richer mix.  In which case bulking will be quite helpful to avoid compaction of moist greens.  If few greens are available, then you might consider sprinkling with fish emulsion liquid - directions on the label. Alfalfa meal is another choice. Mixing your shredded greens and browns together before adding to a hot setup is quite helpful as it’s an already blended microbial menu.

C. Ambient air temps in your area may possibly be involved in heat loss from the pile.  A cover “blanket” may be helpful, eg. layers of cardboard.

D. Turning/ churning frequency at your convenience approximately every 7-14 days helps aeration, once the pile has reached  your target temperature.

E. Inoculating the pile to increase microbial proliferation and thereby action, is your choice.

I sprinkle a cup or so of already finished compost, as layers are added, as my inoculant for hot and cold setups.

F. Keep practicing, then you’ll get use to the needs of your area.

What do you think ?   Let us know if you have questions.   Compost on.     Best.

From original questioner: (BTW, my apologies for poor grammar and typos in my original email.  I’m pecking it out on my phone and often miss errors I would normally catch using a keyboard) .

You may have picked up on something with “bulking” to allow more oxygen flow.  It makes sense that composting at 6000ft instead of sea level would require more air FLOW into the pile.  I’ve been building these piles using the same Bearcat shredder with the same screen thus generating the same material size as I did at sea level; it may have worked there, but won’t here.  I’ve never added vent pipes into my pile either.   Could that give the needed increase in air flow here at altitude?

Kinda funny, now that we’re having this conversation, I now remember cycling in Switzerland and seeing their compost baskets always lined with black plastic.   That was contrary to what I had been taught that piles need to breathe.  I wondered if the black plastic helped maintain temperature in their cooler climate,  but always wondered about oxygen input.  Certainly possible they turned their  piles more often, and I don’t know the elevation where I saw these piles.  Anyway,  I just now remembered that observation.

I’m still kinda surprised 140°F is normal for you.   I assure you,  I had to watch my piles to be sure they didn’t go above 160°F.  I would typically turn and add water if I thought they were going higher which would last for maybe one day, and then right back up to 160.  They’d typically stay at 160 for maybe 4-6 days,  and then hover in the 140 range for another 10 days,  and then around 120 for another few weeks.

I still wonder if the 140-160 bacteria simply don’t exist at higher altitudes.  Although I have a microscope for observing microbes present, it never occurred to me when composting at sea level to take a sample during the hottest phase and try to identify those microbes.  Someone must have done this.   What do 150° thermophilic bacteria look like? Fun conversation!

Answer by JZ: Coarse bulking, in my opinion, is a space holder in the pile which keeps it “fluffy” thereby reducing compaction thus allowing allowing upward convective air flow. This would work at most altitudes, though I have not specifically researched that. Any composting setup will generate some heat due to the breakdown of carbohydrates, thus releasing the captured sun energy. Warm air rises thru the pile the – chimney effect.  In a cold process this heat is less noticeable, but for sure in a hot process. (In our website menu, see Convective Airflow under Composting Info.)

As we are high and dry (5.3K elevation) we have to make efforts at keeping moisture in a setup, so our bins are very snug – not many holes. It is the convective effect of bulking which keeps us in good aeration. We also put a drape on top to decrease evaporation. I repurpose a piece of plastic or tarp on top of my setups. It’s just a loose fitting drape. We do line our fence wire bins.  See Wire Fencing Bin in Homemade Bins under Composting Info.

I have not used perforated pipes in my set up, some do that.  I have no experience to comment on that. I’m guessing that plastic pipes themselves would serve as a bulking agent, preventing compaction, thus helping air flow.

Cannot comment on microbial activity at high elevations. You might try a search for “Composting at high altitudes”.

Keep practicing and producing finished compost.    All the best.

Answer by JH: I am unsure what "fertilizer compost" is. The NPK value of compost is reportedly 1-1-1. Current soil science suggests that soil with 3% organic matter is optimum for plant growth.   Additionally you could use compost as mulch around the base of the tree. Be aware that you should not fertilize the tree for 2-3 years - this allows the roots to become established prior to encouraging leaf growth.

Additionally, peach trees blossom early. They will begin to bud when they have amassed the required number of chill hours which vary by species. It is important to select the proper microclimate in your yard that will best support the tree from blooming too early which places it at greater risk of a late freeze. A temperature at or below 1 degree can kill most buds on the tree and as much as 90 percent of blossoms can be killed at a temperature of 25 degrees.

Answer by JZ: A (my) method for short brew compost tea:

Step one: Fill a 5 gallon bucket with 4 gallons of water, stir the water with a broom handle so as to create a vortex in one direction, then stir in the opposite direction, then let the open bucket sit overnight in a warm spot, in the sun during the day. Doing this will help eliminate chlorine(or similar chemicals) from the water, which might inhibit microbial growth.

Step two: After the above is done, then I add 2-4 cups of sifted, aerobically produced finished compost to the bucket. Then put the bucket in a warm location. Some add a sweetener (eg. unsulfered molasses) to the brew to enhance microbial proliferation. Then you may add an electrical bubbler to the setup to keep it well aerated or you may continue to stir it with a broom handle creating a vortex with each hourly stir. Keep the brew well aerated. I do this for about 6 or more hours, then pour the bucket contents thru a sieve. 

Then use the end product as you wish. I use the tea immediately. Have no experience with storing it for later use, others may comment about that. Tea stored in a closed jar would have residual nutrients, but perhaps diminished microbial activity. My opinion: Our local unamended desert soil often lacks, because of our climate - organic material. Finished, aerobically produced compost is a pre and probiotic for our soil. Adding compost on a regular basis is a straightforward method of improving desert soil fertility. I’d suggest that you share compost with your colleagues, then let them do what they will with it. Making compost tea is an extra procedural step. You could add the tea to your soil anytime, but during the active plant growing season would enhance the uptake of residual nutrients in the tea and warm soil temps would enhance microbial activity. Hope that this is useful information.  Get back if you have questions.

Answer by JH: Interesting question. What I’m reading about PLA composting is that the process you describe must be precise in order to completely break down the PLA fragments and that even an industrial composting operation may fail to fully decompose the fragments which would then end up in the soil. For this reason it doesn’t appear to be within our mission of teaching backyard composting to address PLA composting.

Fortunately there are numerous resources online about PLA composting for someone wanting to do so. And there is evidently a new type of PLA that is more readily compostable being a combination of PLA and thermoplastic starch. Read more about this at

https://www.sustainableplastics.com/news/michigan-scientists-develop-home-compostable-pla-based-blend

Answer by JZ: In addition to what JH has sent you: Decomposition of any organic material is dependent on the action of microbial enzymes on the substrate in the presence of air, moisture and time. Just a thought, you might do your own experiment with heavy-duty inoculation. For example, use separate compost bin. Add 4” or more of moistened finished compost to the bottom, then "sprinkle" some pieces of the polymer to the top, then cover that with another 4" of moisturized compost. Maintain 50% moisture in the bin in all seasons. Then keep a record of how this process evolves in the bin over time. I think that you will need to be quite patient for a result. This would be a cold/static composting process. If you choose to due a hot process setup, then you would follow the hot process guidelines. Does that help?

Answer by JZ: Other master composter colleagues may also answer your question. Here are my thoughts.  A search revealed this manufacturer: ComposTex Covers - Compost Fleece

There may be others too, but I am not familiar with them. For my large piles I use a tarp which has a reflective side and a dark color side. Reflective side is upward in the summer, then the dark side is up in the winter. For me this is a loose fitting drape cover which does allow for air flow, but also decreases upward evaporation of moisture which is useful here in the high desert. I put some rocks around the edge so that the wind does not lift the tarp away. Tarps often degrade in our desert sun, so that they have to be replaced at regular intervals. For my tower bins I cut/repurpose a piece of plastic which covers the top of pile Inside the bin. Another option might be a 6” layer of wheat straw spread out on top of the pile. Let us know if this is helpful info..

Answer by JH: Steve, wow, I'm impressed by such a serious approach to composting. The following response can be summarized quickly as this: If you are hoping to have a hot compost operation which is how I read your question, then the pile must heat up to 150 degrees. To achieve this, sufficient nitrogen is required. The easy rule of thumb is to combine 2 parts carbon to 1 part nitrogen by weight. It also may be necessary to keep the contents of your tumbler moistened more than they have been - the pile should be 50% moisture - similar to wet coffee grounds, damp but not dripping  - and not just at the beginning but at all times. If your tumbler has numerous holes or vents, there may be too much evaporation happening in which case you simply need to cover the openings - i.e. with caulk, duct tape, etc. - to keep a constant moisture level in the tumbler. If you still are not successful in achieving 150 degrees within 48 hrs or so, then it is some combination of these things - the 2:1 C:N ratio, the moisture level, or airflow. If the pile does heat up sufficiently and then drops under 150, simply add nitrogen, maintain the moisture level and it should reach the desired temp again.

Some other comments about the ingredients used -- unless you got the ammonium sulfate for free, it is an expensive way to add nitrogen to a compost operation. What I can find on this substance is that it is only 21% nitrogen. Free coffee grounds, grass clippings or other sources would be better options to increase the nitrogen. Also, both the mushroom compost and worm castings are already decomposed and ready for use as a soil amendment so are not functional additions. However, the mushroom compost may still be too hot, too high in salt to use on many plants and if so, must cure before use as a soil amendment. The compost activator isn't necessary if you have the right C:N mix. But it won't hurt although if there is insufficient nitrogen then the activator can't fully activate. Bone meal is high in phosphorous and is used as a soil amendment for plants needing this nutrient. As such it isn't useful in compost.

Finally, if the mixture has a tendency to form into dry clumps, this will be prevented by not only a proper and consistent moisture level but also by including bulking material to keep airflow throughout the ingredients. Pine cones, pine needles, wood chips, twigs, corncobs, and such will do the trick.

Feel free to visit our website, nmcomposters.org where we have a variety of resource materials including a pamphlet on desert composting. We also offer a variety of classes throughout the year and a schedule of these classes is available at the site.

Don't be discouraged - compost happens. A little tweaking will have your pile heating up.

Answer by JZ: 

1. The minimum size for a hot composting operation is a cubic yard.  My  calculation is that you have ( hopefully correct) 80 gallons = 0.46 cubic yard.  So most likely there is not enough mass/volume to insulate the heat that is developing.  So you may have to increase the volume/mass of ingredients.

2. Coarse bulking material should be added to the mix eg. sticks, twigs, pine cones, corn cobs.

This is recalcitrant carbon which creates “ fluff “ in the operations thus avoiding compaction of wet organics, then provide for air penetration throughout the ingredients.  You could add 5 -10 gallons of bulking, then mix in with the greens & browns.  Bulking material need not be counted in the final C:N ratio of the total mix. Since it decomposes slowly, it will be screened-out when you harvest your finished compost., then may be re-used in next batch

3.  The total mix of ingredients ideally should have a C:N ratio of 25 : 1.  You can get within the

a range of this ratio by adding one part nitrogenous material to every 2 parts carbonaceous material, That is 2:1 by weight.  If you wish to be more scientific you may consult a composting mix calculator.

4. Ammonium sulfate - this is an inorganic salt,  it is a nitrogen source, but because it is a salt it is not “kind” to decomposing microorganisms.  Personally I would not use it.  The other organic nitrogen sources you added are fine: kitchen scrap, coffee, manures, bone & blood meal. Consider also alfalfa meal/ pellets.

5. Once you have increased the volume of your batch and added coarse bulking material, be sure to maintain 50% moisture at all times.   This is similar to the moisture level of brewed coffee grounds.

6.  You may have to reset-up your operation so that you have a cubic yard.  The tumbler could be used as a passive static system (cold), which takes longer but produces fine humus.

7. You are welcome to visit our hot composting bin set-up in North parking lot of the BernCo Extension office.  They are currently static - not generating appreciable test.

8. Read our brochure about desert composting both hot and cold.

9. You are welcome to attend any of our free classes. 

Let us know if this has been helpful to you and if you have more questions.

Response from Questioner: Thank you everyone for your quick response and informative ideas!!! I will start your recommendations this week with the weather week forecast in the mid 50's. I'll give a follow up on  how things go.

Again, THANKS TO EVERYONE!

Answer by JZ: Great work.  Once again is your total volume a cubic yard ?  3’x3’x3' . My guess is that you have enough nitrogen.   Turning a tumbler causes the wet organics to form balls.  Suggest you break up the balls, then not tumble it.  Then see what happens. Purchased steer manure often comes from confined animal feed lots (CAFO’s ) - will likely contain some salt.  If you could get manure locally, would be better.

Answer by JH: You could run electric or razor wire around your compost area or erect a high fence structure with strong latches. But perhaps most effective will be simply keeping all foodstuffs out of your outdoor compost pile. You can still compost food items - there are three methods available - indoor vermicomposting, the bokashi method, or what we term 'blend and bury' where you use a blender to puree the food and then bury it.

Other members of our organization may also respond with additional suggestions. And you will find more information about these methods on our website. We offer many free classes.

Answer by JZ: Other master composters may also respond to your question. Great to hear that you are having success with your composting efforts. In the next few months as the temp. rises you’ll probably be adding water to your setup to maintain an appropriate moisture level.

Hopefully your bin will be in the shade, if not, you may cover the whole thing with two layers of shade fabric or cardboard.

A bin liner may be a heavy duty tarp or pond liner cut to fit.  Cardboard liners may also be useful.

Plastics do breakdown easily in the high desert.  You may cover your pile top with 4” of dry leaves, a heavy duty tarp, old rug, piece of pond liner or a piece of cardboard cut to fit on top. Any cover will need to be moved when you add organics to your bin, then repositioned.

Hope that this is helpful.   Keep up.    Best.

Answer by RR: For years I lined my wire compost frame with cardboard, and it works fine.  If you don’t have any sheets of cardboard big enough, I’ve gone to a recycling dumpster I know about and found whatever I needed. Happy composting.

Answer by RR: Building a hugelkultur mound is usually something you do as a batch process, meaning done all at once. And it usually incorporates a combination of woody products and other organics, like kitchen scraps, if you like. The idea is to soak the wood as you build because, as other organic matter is added and the mound is covered with soil, the wood will hold the moisture, decay very slowly, and provide the nutrients and moisture for planting onto the mound later. I did this about 5 years ago because I had a large accumulation of wood from trees I had trimmed in my yard, plus large cacti I wanted to remove. I dug a 4' x 8' hole a foot deep and built a mound about 3' high, soaking the contents as I built. I've been trying ever since to get something rooted on this mound and finally partially succeeded last year. You really can't plant into it for a year or two because all the internal decomposition is using up the available nitrogen in the mound. So I mulched it, but with the wind and sparse moisture we have, I had to put bird netting over it to hold down the mulch. Last fall I was finally able to get a cover crop partially attached, so maybe I've turned the corner, but it has been a challenge. I suggest you read this project report from one of our graduated Master Composters: https://docs.nmcomposters.org/2019-mc-project-gm.pdf, as an alternative to building a mound.

It sounds as if you want to be able to add your kitchen scraps on a continuing basis, which many of us do. Our website is a tremendous resource for many different methods of doing this "dump and run" technique. Our online class, Home Composting Basics, is a terrific place to start. You will also find the schedule of our free classes on our website menu.

Thank you for your interest in composting.

Answer by JZ: Great to hear of your interest in composting humanure.  I grew up with an outdoor privy(outhouse) in the East.

One fine book on this topic is Humanure Handbook by Joseph Jenkins – available on Amazon. He also has a new one: Compost Toilet Handbook, early 2021.

A composting toilet is a fine idea which, depending on your construction, will make it easy for you to harvest your finished compost. If you will be using the cold process composting in your privy, then you may have, for safety, a 3 year composting cycle. If you set up a hot process method, then it would be 6 -12 months cycle to finished product.

Note:  there is a fine working group in your area  | Work in Beauty | New Mexico | Regenerative Farming

They have composters in their group who may offer advice.

Hope that this is helpful.  Let us know if you have more questions.    Best.

Answer by WR:This sounds great. So good that you are not just putting this great organic matter in the trash to turn into methane in the land fill. I saw you also forwarded this to JZ and he has put the word out to the composters in our organization. Is it possible for individuals to just stop by occasionally and take what you have on hand, without an appointment? I think this is what you mean by "like Starbucks" but wasn't sure.

Answer by JZ: Worm bin(s) - you might consider setting up another worm bin to handle your excess scraps. If you have not yet harvested the worm casts from your current bin, I”d suggest that you consider doing that if your casts are 4”- 6” deep in the bin. Otherwise you could end up with anaerobic (odiferous) conditions at the bottom of bin. 

A tower bin is a useful choice. Yes, your green scraps have a preponderance of nitrogen, but do contain carbon as they are carbohydrates (carbon, hydrogen and oxygen) from photosynthesis. You may use fruit/veg scraps in the tower bin as long as you add coarse bulking material (which is a brown) as you build so as to prevent compaction of that moist material. For coarse bulking you could purchase a bag of wood bark chips at local garden center and/or collect twigs, sticks at you local park or hiking trail. All used paper products are browns and as you mentioned you could gather some dry leaves (at parks) and store them for future use. Some garden centers may carry small bags of wheat straw, which you could use as brown. 

During the composting (decomposition) process some of the nitrogen in the mix will volatilize into the atmosphere, so that the finished compost will have an an approximate value of 1% nitrogen, 1% phosphorus, 1% potassium, which is useable addition to our local desert soil. Get back if you have questions.

Answer by WR:  It's good to know of your interest and that you have a worm farm. We offer free worm classes fairly often.  Please keep an eye on our class schedule (see Classes under Activities in our website menu). Right now we don't have one scheduled until June, but we add new classes frequently.  (Maybe you can talk Mary into offering another one.  Perhaps an intermediate or advanced class. :) We also have some online worm classes (see Online Classes under Resources in our website menu). I will forward this to our founder and outreach coordinator.  He may have other ideas. Keep up the good work.

Answer by JZ:  Great that you want to learn more about worm composting. Follow the link for the recorded worm classes which WR sent to you. Continue to practice, research, read. Sam McCarthy from Santa Fe has an informative website: doitwithworms.net

Continue to send us any particular / specific questions you may have: compost-questions@nmcomposters.org

Answer by JZ: Great idea to capture that organic material from thistle! Here are my thoughts: I think that you are following the temperature guidelines for hot process composting. You could continue to do what you are doing, just give it plenty of time, then the seeds will eventually liquify - be patient. Some composters put weeds in black plastic bag, tie it shut, then put in sun till the contents liquify - this would an anaerobic process. Your heat issue might be that your setup is horizontal rather than conical, so it is not “holding" in the generated heat from the breakdown of carbohydrates. If horizontal on the soil surface, then when ambient air temp drops at night, some of the generated heat will easily dissipate due to upward loss. And you might be creating a low oxygen environment with your current setup which may not benefit the dynamic hot process. If you were to make a conical pile with the thistle, then the core temp might be better kept within the pile.  Would suggest that you add some coarse bulking material as you build the pile to allow for convective airflow. Then turn that pile every 2 weeks so that all the material is exposed to the high core temp then any seeds would be destroyed. Continue to cover the top of the pile with a tarp to preserve moisture. You might enjoy reading pp.5-7 of this brochure:

https://www.nmcomposters.org/_files/ugd/9ed432_2efaef3fb0404de2b74b646940ed51ac.pdf

Hope this helps.  Get back if you have questions.

Answer by JZ: Great to hear of your generosity. You did not mention your zip code, so I can’t make a specific location suggestion. Some of my suggestions:

Seek the nearest community garden in your area, they often have a composting setup

or might use the clippings as a garden mulch. 

Add them to your own composting setup.

Guide to Albuquerque's Community Gardens

Let us know if you have questions.

Answer by MR: One other concern that some folks might have is whether the grass has been treated with any kind of selective herbicide. The residual effects of those toxins are often not broken down in the initial composting process, and I'm sure you wouldn't want your generosity to inadvertently cause any harm in someone's garden. Thank you for your offer.

Answer by WR: I think you will find some helpful information on our "Tumbler Bins" page, written by people in our organization, at https://www.nmcomposters.org/tumbler-bins

I am going to copy this to our compost questions email list and there's a good chance you'll hear from others as well. Feel free to ask more questions.  It's great to know that you will be composting.

Answer by JZ:  Great to hear that you are composting. I do not personally have a specific tumbler recommendation. I am not aware of any tumbler specific for the desert. Any desert composting bin should be in the shade in the summer months to decrease evaporation of moisture. If you have no shade, then cover the bin with 2 layers of shade fabric or cardboard. Note that some, tumblers if purchased as a kit are a challenge to assemble. If you have a model in mind then go to youtube.com, put in the model #, as there may be assembly instructions available.

Suggestions for the use and purchase of a tumbler bin are on our webpage:

Tumbler Bins | Bernalillo County Extension Master Composters | New Mexico

* In nature decomposing organic material is not “turned”. There is a completely valid, straightforward, reliable method of composting which is managed statically, that is no turning is required as long as bulking material is added regularly which will impact convective air flow and moisture maintained at 50% in all seasons.  Static composting may be done in a tower or tumbler bin. Convective Air Flow | Bernalillo County Extension Master Composters | New Mexico Yes, you may use any composting container statically as long as you add bulking

material and maintain 50% moisture in all seasons.

You might enjoy refreshing your knowledge at one of our basic classes:

Classes | Bernalillo County Extension Master Composters | New Mexico

Hope that this is helpful.

Answer by JH:  Perhaps the NM Dept of Agriculture https://nmdeptag.nmsu.edu/agrifuture.html

and/or the Luna County Extension Office at 575/536-8806 may be of help.

Answer by JZ:  I will add a bit to what my colleague JH has sent to you. I think what you are wanting is a soil amendment, which would be compost. You would have to seek out a large scale composting facility in your vicinity. As you start this ongoing process you may want to establish a baseline by getting samples of your soil to a soil test laboratory. You might pay particular attention to the % organic matter in the soil report. You may also consider cover cropping as a method of improving soil organic matter and fertility. Our webpage “Soil Matters” may be helpful and as mentioned your local Ag. Agent could be of help:

Soil Matters | Bernalillo County Extension Master Composters | New Mexico

Caliche is an issue to discuss with your agent. Hope this is helpful. Get back if you have questions. All the best in your efforts.

Answer by JZ:  My beagle had a similar experience 3 years ago.  With treatment she survived.

My tower bins are now fenced in so she cannot get to them. I’d say that this was a useful post.

Answer by JH: Perhaps VCA is right or perhaps the poster didn’t present VCA’s findings entirely accurately. Puppies also eat balls and blankets often requiring surgical intervention so the silly little things need to be supervised. My chickens always helped me turn the compost and they never got sick - they also ate black widow spiders without incident. Maybe birds are hardier than puppies. Perhaps we should first reach out to VCA and verify their position. Then it would be interesting to know what and how the poster was composting. Was puppy noshing on the contents of a bokashi bucket or worm bin? Without knowing precisely a response would have to include a list of acceptable and non-acceptable items for outdoor composting as well as list other methods that have different requirements.

Answer by JH: Oh disregard my reply - I am just now seeing John’s. We learn something new everyday!

Answer by JH: Of course I got JZ's email after sending mine. Here is one of many webpages about this problem. Maybe simply posting the link is appropriate.

https://peteducate.com/dog-ate-compost/

Answer by MR: And of course I just read all these threads after coming in from finishing off the last layers of a hot compost pile, which is indeed heating up despite being assembled in the wrong season (thank the compost angels for an ample supply of chicken poop). I tend to agree with both of JH's responses. My first concern is that most people will have only a vague idea of what "compost" actually is, so they won't be able to distinguish between the finished process and the various components of an unfinished pile of various feedstock materials. My deepest concern is that the paranoid elements in the human community will want to outlaw compost altogether, or at least send out compost police to protect every dimwit dog from eating something dangerous. I'm only exaggerating slightly.

My direct response to anyone asking the question would be to make sure Fido can't get into the compost because of course there are things in there that are not good for mammals to eat. Let the worms and chickens get into it if you'd like, otherwise leave it for the microbes, bacteria, and fungi to sort it out, because they will. And then we can use it safely also. By analogy, humanure is completely safe when it is treated appropriately and "finished" before incorporation into garden soils (just ask the millions of people in Scandinavia and northern Europe who have been using composting toilets for decades), but it's not at all safe during the composting process. A little common sense goes a long way.

Answer by  PB: Dogs eat strange things.  I am sure we all have stories.

Answer by AB:  I got the email thread - I hadn’t heard about compost killing pets - I do think they would dig through and eat things they shouldn’t eat, important to keep compost covered or in bins or fenced off if in a pile in a yard.

Answer by AB: I am researching toxicity of compost for pets - the Pet poison helpline is a good resource: https://www.petpoisonhelpline.com/pet-safety-tips/things-in-your-yard-that-are-poisonous-to-dogs-cats/

Another article on mycotoxicosis that can occur with ingestion of compost or moldy foods - can be more of a problem than I realized: https://www.vetfolio.com/learn/article/toxicology-brief-tremorgenic-mycotoxicosis-in-dogs

Answer by RR:  Attached is an article from the latest Mother Earth News magazine (January 2023) about compost toxicity in dogs. Since we recently had a discussion about this, it seemed pertinent: https://www.motherearthnews.com/homesteading-and-livestock/pets/mycotoxin-poisoning-dog-zm0z23fmzawar/

Answer by AB: I may have sent this before - the pet poison helpline website is a good resource for pet toxins:  https://www.petpoisonhelpline.com/pet-safety-tips/is-compost-poisonous-to-pets/

Answer by JZ: I will do my best to answer your questions.  Other colleagues may send their opinions too.

* Stale bread might be considered a brown as the nitrogen has probably vaporized.  So, yes it is compostable. The only caveat may be that the scent of the bread may attract predators. This may be obviated by, as you suggested, mixing the stale bread with other organics  to dilute the scent.

* Personally I do not feel that washing / rinsing egg shells is necessary. I dry them for a few days, then they crush very easily.  Then sprinkle them in my setup and my worm bins.

This article from MSU extension presents some common sense about egg shells for composting hopefully it will be useful:    Adding egg shells to compost | MSU Extension

Hope that this is helpful.

Answer by WR: You can most definitely continue composting through the winter and it is highly recommended.  Decomposition in your heap may slow down during the winter months but it will "work" anyway and all those good organic materials will not go to waste even if they don't finish decomposing over the winter.  The main adjustment is to be a bit more patient with it.  To preserve moisture, we recommend having your pile in the shade during the summer, if possible.  In the winter, you can put the pile in a sunnier location but that is not crucial. In any season, keep it covered to prevent moisture loss in our high desert climate. We have a web page with more info about Winter Composting here:  https://www.nmcomposters.org/winter-composting

I hope this is assuring to you that it is fine to compost in winter.  Please don't hesitate to send more questions as you go along.

Answer by JZ: Maintaining moisture in garden soil year round improves the environment for soil microbes to decompose both topical and incorporated organic materials - year round. They are forming humus. If you have healthy plants in the Fall, then you may allow all those plant parts to overwinter and decompose in place. It is not necessary to pull them out. They are a source of organic material - a substrate for soil microorganisms to decompose to humus. If you have any diseased plants, in your garden then they should be removed, then trashed, before overwintering.

Yes, you may use the residual leaves as a top mulch this Spring, just move them aside to do your planting.

Yes, in the Fall you might turn leaves into the soil, then water, maintain moisture into Winter. You could use a fork spade to turn them. A rototiller will disturb already formed soil structure- soil particle aggregates, which create air& water spaces which create tilth. The method is your choice.

Yes, what you have described is a cycle that you would be repeat seasonally - annually.

You might enjoy some of our future soil classes which will be posted here.

Please let us know if this is helpful and if you have more questions.  Good for you!    Keep up.   Best.

Response from Questioner: Wonderful thank you so much! One other question, would it be beneficial to add in a green manure/cover crop into this cycle somehow? When and how would you recommend I do it? Thanks

Answer by JZ: Excellent idea, which will add nitrogen, nutrients and organic mass to your soil.

As soon as soil warms up in the Spring you could plant a cover crop - there are many choices.

This guide may be of help to you: NMSU: Principles of Cover Cropping for Arid and Semi-arid Farming Systems

After your crop has germinated and is growing in the Spring - about 10 days before you want to plant your regular garden selections, then gently, with a fork spade, till in the cover crop. The crop will begin to decompose in moist soil. About 10 days later you may put in your other crops.   Then in late August / September you could plant another Winter crop - many choices.

Good for you !

Answer by JZ: First - good job! You are doing a fine operation that will provide humus for the soil at the zoo. You have a fine mix of greens and browns. If at all possible, let your pile be in a shaded location, to decrease evaporation.

You could balance air flow and reduce compaction of wet ingredients in the pile by adding coarse bulking material: finger-size, sticks, twigs, pine cones, pine needles.  Bulk as you build the pile.  If you are not currently bulking, you may start adding the bulk, then mix in with what is currently in the pile. This helps with convective air flow in the pile. See our brochure.

If your pile is reaching 5 feet in height, the weight of wet organics will create downward compaction. It would be fine then to subdivide the pile, so that the height is about 3-4 feet. You may have more than one pile. In your environment, I'd suggest that you cover the whole pile with a tarp. This will reduce flying insects AND reduce evaporation from the pile. Hold the tarp in place with rocks around the edges. Of course remove the tarp when you are working with the pile, then replace it.

In thermophilic composting the internally generated heat comes from microbial enzymatic action, breaking down the carbohydrates thus releasing heat.  An ideal target temperature would be 150F maintained for about 2 weeks, then the pile might be turned, churned and watered as necessary. Turning and churning exposes all organics in the pile to heat.  This will destroy plant pathogens and seeds. The moisture level should be similar to brewed coffee grounds - saturated, but not dripping.  You could purchase a temp. probe for about $30.00 at Amazon.

So turning will drop the temperature some, but it will rise again as long as you maintain your current mix of greens and browns.

So if you add bulking, maintain 50% moisture and turn every 2 weeks you will soon have a fine end product.

Response from Questioner: Thank you very much for your quick reply. We are going to try the idea of using tarp. I have one more question for you: I like the idea using bulking for a structure that aids convection. Is it also applicable for large scale composting? Our current practice is we weekly add “new” green waste with some hay to the pile in progress. Meanwhile, pile will be turned and watered. (By the way, after using tarp, we will stop over-watering it.) In winter, the frequency will be higher as we have more green waste. I am afraid adding new stuff and turning the compost will damage the structure. Or maybe it’s not necessary to turn it if the structure can be kept in the first place. 

Answer by JH: John and possibly others may well reply but following are my comments. The purpose of adding bulking materials is to create good airflow so that the pile will not go anaerobic. For this reason, bulking material is always needed unless the operation has some type of mechanical airflow system.

It is not necessary to turn the pile ever. However, if you are wanting to maintain a hot pile or otherwise wanting to decrease the timeline to finished compost, it is necessary to turn the pile. Simply follow JZ's earlier comments on this regardless of time of year or contents of the pile.

Answer by JZ: JH has responded to your question.  Here is my opinion.

What is your description of large scale composting?   What are the dimensions of the set-up?Yes, coarse bulking is appropriate for large scale composting. Adding more greens and browns to an existing hot pile is fine. It would not damage the structure. If your winter additions are very nitrogenous (greens) then adding (mixing in) course bulking wood be an imperative. Bulking only needs to be mixed in the new addition, not the whole pile - its already in there.

In my opinion a pile that is not bulked has poor structure as the bulking will decrease compaction. A non-bulked pile may undergo compaction creating an anaerobic situation then unpleasant odors and acidic conditions may result.

Yes, any pile set-up may be managed statically (no turning) as long as you bulk as you build and maintain 50% moisture and cover the top.

Answer by JZ: Vermicomposting is great !  Management of worms in a large scale setup is quite similar to small scale. Large scale vermicomposting could take place in a straw bale bin of any size. As you are in Santa Fe, the straw bales would provide insulation during winter months. Another alternative would be a wood 12” deep raised bed which is sunk a few inches into the soil and then well mulched after the red worms are added. 

Years ago there was a restaurant on 4th. St., ABQ  (Los Ranchos) which had a large scale outdoor setup similar to the described raised bed. It might be Casa Benavidez or El Pinto.   Sorry just don’t remember which one. 

In either case moisture must be maintained at about 50%, similar to the residual moisture in freshly brewed coffee grounds.

There are various methods of harvesting from a large scale setups.   You could search that on web. 

Great idea. Compost on! An excellent text for you: “The Worm Farmer’s Handbook” 2018 by Rhonda Sherman ( Amazon has it). Your AnswerPublicOnly Me & Admin

Answer by JZ: I think that you may be referring to the "Garden Gourmet" composting bin. See attached web site. It is also available at Amazon.com.

http://www.gardengourmet.com/

Answer by JZ: Great to hear about your composting efforts.

a. A useful liner for a snug desert bin could be pond liner. I have been using a bin with same pond liner for over 5 years. Staple it to the inside walls of bin.   And/ or a good quality tarp may be used inside along the walls of the bin. Cardboard passes moisture outward, not the best liner in the desert.

b. A snugly built wooden bin is fine.  Low porosity tower bins are also useful.

c. At this moment I have few suggestions about snakes.  Underline the whole bin with 1/4″ hardware cloth, then bring up along all sides, then staple in place and / or Use an elevated tumbler bin.  Bang on the bin before opening to let snake know you are there.  It will leave quickly.

d. Desert composting bins: low porosity, ie. few holes at the bottom, place the bin in the shade, cover the inside top of the pile, inside the bin. I repurpose a piece of non porous plastic as a top drape – works well, then put lid on bin.

e. See Desert Composting under Composting Info in our site menu. All entries on this page will be useful.

f. You can use a tumbler bin (again, see Composting Info menu).

g.  Lining the double wooden bin with pond liner would be helpful for moisture preservation.

Let us know if you have questions.   Compost on !

Response from Questioner: Thank you so much for your reply. Very helpful. I read all of your materials - so impressed and am going to have to work on some materials for Pima MGs.In the photo essay the bins were placed slightly elevated but in the photos and the image with the air being pulled up the bins are on the ground. I have only ever had a bin on the ground - ie, wood touching ground. The design we have has a bottom runner that will be trex or redwood. Is this ok? Or is having it slightly elevated part of the drawing air in? I would prefer to have it flat on the ground if possible.Second - the "coarse bulking materials" - what do you think of using chopped up brown palm fronds for this? I am using them in various places in my garden and they compost (maybe??) after a *long* time but I think they'd work quite nicely to create air pockets - actually might create them better if they are less chopped. We don't have much in the way of pine cones, sticks etc here but we do have palm fronds that are brown. And sometimes palm stalks. What do you think?Third - have you used drip line in the bin or small sprayers? Preference? We will need to use on or the other and have the compost on the garden drip. Thoughts? I also applaud your explanation of "wetness" - this is always such a hard thing to explain but "coffee grounds" is perfect. And really, beautiful compost does resemble coffee grounds in the end! Thank you again. I will keep you in the loop. Does the NM Master Composter Class ever take out of state folks? I just saw that all of your upcoming workshops are full - excellent. We are just starting to get more hands on workshops going here. Thank you again for your assistance.

Answer by JZ: Thanks! Generally, locally our bins are flat on the soil / ground. I do not know what you mean by “bottom runner”. Some colleagues elevate a bin on a pallet, the top of which is covered with weed barrier fabric, so stuff does not drop down thru the open spaces.   This is our setup at Extension office garden site. There appears to be a big gap at the bottom, but we corrected that and so the bin bottom edges are flush with the soil now.

Try the palm stalks. Have no experience with fronds. Chunky would probably be fine. You could try them to see how they perform. You could also buy a bag of wood bark chips at nursery. Experiment see how it goes. As long as whatever you use obviates compaction of the moist organics, allowing for convective air flow you’ll be fine. I do not have a personal experience with using a drip system in a compost setup. Seems reasonable. Try it, see how it performs.

We have not had a volunteer training since before pandemic. When/if we decide to do one it may be virtual,(?) if so, anyone could register and join. The only issue would be our local outdoor composting demos. Our education coordinator would have to decide about that.

Keep us posted.  We need to learn from other desert composters’ experiences.    Best.

Answer by WR: A hot pile gets hot because of internal biological activity, not because of placing it in a warm location. So, it's not important to place it in a sunny location.  In fact, quite the contrary. I'd suggest that you place your pile in the shadiest place possible so that in the hotter months, moisture doesn't evaporate so fast.  If you can't keep your pile in the shade, you can cover it with a shade cloth.  (Retaining moisture is of prime importance in our dry desert climate.)

Answer by RR: I agree with WR, and it appears you have followed those guidelines with your first pile. You might also consider that placing your second pile in close proximity to your first pile might be advantageous when it comes to working on your compost for ease of operation, as well as aesthetics, rather than having your composting operations spread all around your yard. Happy composting!

Answer by WR: Our website has links to places you can buy red worms.  We have an online worm composting (vermicomposting) class. 

Check out (1) Worm Sources, (2) Compost and Mulch Sources, and (3) Online Classes, all under Resources in our website menu.