All Questions and Answers

Answer by JZ: Thanks for sharing your experiences.  I have been teaching “chop before you drop” in my classes for many years. This simple maneuver creates more surface area for the organics, which allows for better water absorption and surface exposure to decomposing microorganisms. Smaller decomposes better / faster. This maneuver is also mentioned for both cold / hot process, (sheet composting and worm composting) composting methods in our brochure: docs.nmcomposters.org/composting-in-the-desert-2018.pdf

In my basic composting classes I do  present composting options for small spaces. Worm bins and/or a Bokashi bucket method, bucket in a hole.  See Bokashi under Composting Topics in our menu.

My basic class is posted on YouTube.

I do use several bins made from a trash can, which can be sized to fit a (small) location. See Homemade Bins.

We recently set up a straw bale bin composter at the Family Practice garden in Corrales.

Watched your YouTube presentation. You have a fine garden !

Great to hear from you and thanks for sharing your successes.   I live in Rio Rancho.   All the best.

Answer by JZ: Your question will be received by a few master composters, so you may receive other responses. Here are my thoughts.

The Bokashi method is an anaerobic fermentation of organic material.  Some describe it as pre-compsting, because the stored material in the bucket will eventually be turned into garden soil where aerobic microorganisms will complete the decomposition process to humus. Decomposition is not completed in the bucket, but in the soil.

Citrus peal is organic material which may be chopped, then added to a bokashi bucket setup. Citrus peel contains natural oils. It is the oils which may slow decomposition a bit as they may be somewhat
resistant to microbial enzymes, but peel will eventually decompose.  Microbes will overcome.

Some, I think, incorrectly say that the peel is acidic. It is the citrus juice which is acidic, the peel less so.

As the Bokashi method is anaerobic, acids naturally occur in the fermentation process in the bucket.

So my suggestion is to chop citrus peel, then add to the bucket and the fermentation process will move forward. The decomposition process will only go to completion when the contents are added to soil, not in the bucket. Hope that this is useful.

Answer by JZ: Note: the BCEMC does not endorse nor promote any service, product or vender. The following may be of interest.

You may contact the ABCWUA Soil Amendment Facility, located on the far West Mesa: 505.205.5721, http://www.abcwua.org/content/view/87/75

And also: Montessa Park Convenience Center, 3512 Los Picaros Rd. SE, ABQ, 505.873.6607.

A commercial vender: Soilutions, 9800 Bates Rd. SE, ABQ, 505.873.6607, http://www.soilutions.net.

Answer by RB: You look very organized and have obviously put a lot of thought into what approach to take. Others will weigh in on our questions also, but here’s my input:

Question#1:  Now would be a good time to move your buckets into the shade; it is getting plenty hot already.  Alternatively you could dig holes and sink them into the ground, which will act as insulation but is much more work.

Question#2:  Yes cockroaches are disgusting but, yes, they are part of the process.  They are decomposers, (eating, then pooping) and are help produce finished compost.  Another thing to keep in mind, they will be more interested in your compost than in what’s in your kitchen (small comfort I know). The only way I know to keep them out, is to have a sealed system (but not airless).  Maybe sinking the buckets partially in the soil so those holes at the bottom are covered might help.  I can’t tell from the photos what size ventilation holes you have in or near the top, but hopefully they aren’t large enough for too many critters to get in. I’m sure others will have suggestions also.

Answer by RR: As a master gardener, you likely understand that composting is human involvement in the natural decomposition of organic materials. This decomposition is accomplished by a whole ecosystem of living organisms, one of which can be the  cockroach. Unfortunately, by adding too many nitrogen-based materials, such as decaying meat, grease, and dairy, to the compost, it will start to smell. This could easily activate a cockroach problem. These resilient creatures live in compost because it’s an abundant food and moisture source.  They chew on organic matter, helping to break it down, and their feces adds nutrients to the compost. However, knowing they are beneficial in the decomposition process does little to diminish the “yuck factor” when most folks encounter cockroaches. If accepting their presence is not an option, cockroaches can be removed with diatomaceous earth, although this will likely have the unfortunate effect of killing other beneficial bugs. Heating up the compost with appropriate C:N ratio organics and moisture content will make a compost pile uninviting for cockroaches and many other creatures. Ensuring the compost bin is sealed, except for the air holes, which should be screened, will help keep them out. Man will never be able to get rid of the cockroach, so what better place to have them than where they are performing a beneficial use, the compost pile. After all, if they are in the compost, the less chance of them being in the home.

Other options for those who want to compost but are turned off by cockroaches can be Bokashi, and secondly, composting with worms, or vermicomposting. Information on these can be found on our website at https://www.nmcomposters.org/handouts.

I hope this helps your concerned citizen. Happy Composting!

Answer by JZ: Thanks for the intellectual callenge.   Some thoughts come to mind.

Put some on garden soil, put some in compost operation, does not have to be all or the other.

Jim Brooks told us that the best thing to do with organic material is to allow it to decompose,
thus forming humus, a stable substance, then use it for our garden soil.

Soil microorganisms and  composting worms benefit from the addition of un-decomposed & decomposing organic material such as coffee, shredded leaves & paper, straw, manures and organic mulches.   These added to the soil (topically) give them something to "munch" on so that they may continue to make humus and recycle plant nutrients.

The one comment on beneficial fungi grabbed my attention, so will continue to research that.

The art of composting is a riot of ideas, which makes this all much fun!

Answer by RR: Other Master Composters may also reply, but here is my response. First of all, thanks for composting instead of just throwing away your scraps. You may have already our desert composting handout on our website (see Desert Composting under Composting Info in our website menu) but on the last page, the diagram shows why we should cover our compost piles with an impermeable cover (tarp, trash bags, or whatever). First, it will prevent the nutrients from leaching into the ground when it rains. But more importantly, since it doesn’t rain much here, there is still a significant amount of condensation generated from inside the pile itself. Without a cover, this will just evaporate; with a cover, you can hold that moisture in your pile and reduce the frequency of adding water to maintain a 50% moisture level. In addition, if you are going to build a structure, don’t build one like you see in most places that tell you how to compost.  Our website is the only one I’ve ever seen that talks about composting in the desert. All others show you how to make a composting structure with a lot of air infiltration all around. This will just require you to regularly moisten your pile even if you do cover it. We recommend eliminating these air holes and using course bulking materials to hasten air flow in your pile.

Turning your pile is optional. Just realize it will take longer to decompose if you don’t turn it. The end result will be just as good; it’ll just require more time. One time you definitely want to turn it, however, is if it starts to smell. That likely means it has gotten too moist and has started to go anaerobic. So then add some carbonaceous material (browns) and turn it.

I recommend reading the handout material on our website about hot and cold composting in the desert. Hope this helps.  Happy composting.

From original questioner:  That’s great, thank you! So it sounds like I don’t really need a structure of any sort, rather just a pile covered with a tarp is optimal. I’ll read the handout after work today!

Answer by JH:  Correct, tossing feedstock on the ground in a pile with the cover RR describes is perfectly suitable. And if you don't intend to harvest the finished product for use elsewhere in the yard, you could just bury the scraps which would prevent the need to ever turn, water or cover other than soil on top to keep your dogs and other critters away.

Have fun and after you get started, if you are interested in taking a class we'll have the schedule posted when it is possible to again hold classes.

Answer by RR: A structure just helps to keep the contents consolidated, add some aesthetics, and maybe discourage some critters.  Also, if you are building a hot pile, it needs to be at least a cubic yard, and that is much easier to contain with a structure. But it sounds like you just want to be able to, as we call it, “dump and run,” which is a cold composting process, and there are no size requirements for that method. Good luck.  

Answer by JZ: Nice to hear about you composting efforts. Other colleagues may also respond to your question. My sense from what you have described is that your green / brown blend became compacted in the bucket.  So you can improve the situation by adding coarse bulking material to the setup: for example, finger size sticks, twigs, corncobs, small pine cones, small wood chips. So when your bucket is empty, then the first thing to do is add about six inches of bulking to the bottom of bucket, then add two inches of bulking after every five inches of organic material as you continue to build in the bucket, that is bulk as you build.  This method reduces compaction of organic materials and provides for convective airflow as shown in the picture you'll find on our website under Convective Airflow under Composting Info in our main menu.

Be sure that you have patent drainage holes at the bottom of bucket as shown under Homemade Bins under Composting Info as well.

In the future you may balance your green kitchen scraps with many shredded paper products, cardboard and shredded brown leaves. What goes in the bucket first, will decompose first.  So after a few months look for finished compost at the bottom of bucket.  Fished product looks like dark chocolate cake crumbs.  When you collect your finished product, remove the coarse bulking material, then use it all over again. Sifting will provide a fine product which easily blend into in your garden soil.

You may enjoy some of our online classes.  See a link to those under Resources in our main menu. Let us know if you have questions.  Compost on !

Answer by JZ: Great to hear that you would compost food scraps.  We are located in ABQ, NM.

You would have to check for a local community garden in Las Cruces as many of them have a composting setup on site.

You might consider a closed container Bokashi composting method, which could be done in an apartment. See Bokashi under Composting Info in our website menu.

Answer by JZ: Firstly I would encourage your group to choose a composting method for leftovers from the garden- there are many choices for a roof top garden. Then you would be recycling nutrients on the spot, not needing the elevator for transport. 

Your group is welcome to attend any of our classes.

Low priced truckload compost available:

Sandoval Co. Composting facility, Rio Rancho, 15$ / truckload. 2708 Iris Rd., 867.0816

ABCWUA Soil Amendment / composting facility, BernCo., Far west mesa.  289.3600,    www.abcwua.org

You could ask Soilutions for a donation or reduced price donation.  877.0220. 

You would have to bag the product to get it on the elevator.  Hope this is helpful.

Answer from RR: Your question will be received by a few master composters who also may
comment. Here are my thoughts.

Great to hear that you are home composting. Compost made from sewage has to reach a temperature greater than 130 degrees F for about a week in order to kill the pathogens potentially harmful to humans which live in the sewage.  My guess is that if Artesia and Carlsbadproduce this compost to distribute to the public, they probably meet this requirement. However, you never know unless the proper tests are conducted to ascertain so.  That is why our organization does not advise home composters to use sewage for compost whose use is intended for vegetable gardens.  We recommend using this compost on ornamentals because, as you've heard, it's really good stuff. That said, the decision on what to put in your compost or what type of compost to use for any particular purpose is yours.

Happy composting!

Answer from JZ:  Agree with all that RR has sent you.  The ABCWUA has been composting biosolids for many years, the compost is sold to the public. See: Compost

Any manure is best composted with a hot process as Rod has mentioned.

Another consideration for your garden soil fertility is cover / green manure cropping.  You could plant a winter crop in late August, early September, eg. winter wheat / rye.  This crop will be photosynthesizing thru the season, thus eventually feeding the soil microorganisms with carbohydrates (sugar). Then in the early spring you could gently till the crop into the soil where it will decompose (compost) adding residual nutrients and organic material to your soil. This article may be helpful: https://aces.nmsu.edu/pubs/_a/A150.pdf

All the best.  Compost on….

Answer by JZ: Here are my thoughts: I have no experience in using sludge compost in my garden. Perhaps the best thing to do is ask the composting outfit that produces the compost if it may be used in a vegetable garden. If you are “fretful” about using that product, then don’t and continue your research.

Surely you could use this product around your ornamental plants.

A fine thing would be for you to make your own compost, then you know what went into it.

I cannot come up with a reason why sludge compost would cause garden soil to become hydrophobic. My opinion is that compost acts / absorbs water like a “sponge”.

Perhaps my colleagues will have opinions.

From original questioner: Thanks for your quick reply. I’m not really too fretful about using sewage compost in my garden and I do already compost. I was just looking for more organic material to put into my garden beds. There is a local guy who grows micro greens here in Las Cruces (Jay Valencia) that posted something claiming that the Las Cruces city compost will cause your soil to become hydrophobic. I didn’t know how much credence to give his assertion. Just  for general information I’ve forwarded you an article about the Las Cruces sewage compost. Thanks for your help.

Answer by JZ: Thanks for the article.  It’s great that organic leftovers are being recycled in LC. Hopefully this will occur in more of our municipalities as citizens request, suggest and support the concept.

As the drought continues and temperatures rise in the growing season, it will be useful to drought-proof our soil with generous amounts of organic materials and matter. Deep topical mulching with organics and some form of shading will be helpful.

Some thoughts about more organics for your garden:

I have an agreement with a small local coffee shop. I provide the buckets. I pick up about 15 gallons of coffee grounds per week.

In ABQ there is a juice squeezing company which gives away copious amounts of pulp. Both are fine sources of nitrogen in the high desert.

I live near Corrales, NM, so there are many sources for horse manure. One must be aware as there may be residual persistent herbicides in manures, but it’s workable.

Two years ago I presented a basic composting class for a few students who were composting on the NMSU campus. Enjoyed it.

Answer by JZ: I will answer to the best of my ability.  To be clear about the pH scale: “raising“ the pH scale would make it more alkaline, not acidic. (See https://www.reagent.co.uk/what-is-ph-scale/)

The decomposition (composting) is a neutralizing process over time, so adding an organic which is a bit acidic will not inhibit the process. That assumes that one is diluting that which is acidic with other organics which are not, eg. used paper products, vegetable scraps, yard & garden clippings and leaves from a variety of trees. So mixing a variety of ingredients into the leaves with tannins would “dilute” the acidity and composting process itself will neutralize the end product (finished compost) to a pH of about 7. So I would use the cottonwood leaves, shred them if possible, blend them with other organic materials, maintain moisture in the setup at all times, then compost (decomposition) happens.

Hope that this is useful.  Get back to me if you need more info..   All the best.

Answer by JZ: Great that your son is interested in composting. Perhaps he could help choose a bin which he likes. There are so many manufactured bins on the market. Most are not specifically designed for desert composting. Many are too porous – too many holes, allowing for too much evaporation.  So if you purchased one of those then you could block the holes with duct tape or a caulk.

Some of the tumbler bins are quite snug, if they appeal to him. Small ones are easy to move around, which is useful. Using /buying a tumbler info is on our website: see Tumbler Bins under Composting Information in our main menu.

You / he might want to start out simply and inexpensively with a homemade bin. There are 4 described under Homemade Bins under Composting Info on our website. 

One of them is a container in the soil, which is quite simple to do.  The trash can bin is super easy to make quite inexpensively.

My personal preference is the tower bin, which has an opening at the top for additions and a slider door at the bottom to collect finished compost. There are many choices/sizes just above $100.00. These are very easy to use, in my opinion. I have a few of them myself.

I do not know anyone locally who makes bins.  I hope that this is helpful.  Get back to us with further questions.

Answer by WR: It’s probably too late for you to do this for your son’s Christmas but I just came across someone on NextDoor who builds compost bins.  His name is Aaron L. and he’s a freshman student at UNM, looking to make some extra money.  Here is what he posted on NextDoor: (link expired)

From Original Questioner: Hi!  Thanks for reaching out with this information.  I ended up getting my son Lifetime’s 50gal tumbling composter.  It took 3 of us (one with a PhD in electrical eng!) to put it together.  It is very well made, so we are all happy with it.

Happy composting in 2021!

Reply by WR: Great, I’m glad you found something you like.  Hope your son and your family have fun composting.  I’ve found it to be very rewarding. We are always glad to answer any questions that may arise.

Answer by JZ: You / your son may find Tumbler Bin info on our website useful. 

I applaud this young man’s contribution.

 If you check some of his wooden bins you’ll see gaps in the sides.  This type of bin is what is often pictured in many composting books written for non-desert climates.

Increasing summer temps. and intense UVR will increase evaporation for any composting setup. So, in my opinion his design could be modified, that is –  no gaps, so that it would be a bin appropriate for the desert. Snug, low porosity bins will be better performers in a desert environment, in my opinion.

Answer by J Z: I have not yet added bio bags to my composting setup, so I do not have experience with them. I did have a friend who put a tied up bag of kitchen scrap in a biobag in her bin. She did not empty the bag just left it tied up. Then the contents went anaerobic (low oxygen) became smelly. So my suggestion would be to empty the contents of the bag in your bin then tear up the bag itself, then add to your setup.  From time to time notice how the bag biodegrades in the bin, then you’ll have an answer to your question.   You might also contact the bag manufacturer for their suggestions.

Hope that this is helpful.

Answer by JH: Not knowing the brand of your bags, it is hard to say how easily they will break down. Generally speaking these bags are typically made of potato or corn starch and should break down rather easily, though depending on the exact compost operation, perhaps not quickly. Give ’em a try and let us know of your experience.

Answer by WR: I tried composting some biobags that came with a countertop compost container. (Emptied of their contents.)  It seemed to take a long time for them to break down in my cold composting setup.  I wonder if it would help to cut them up and then soak them in hot or boiling water before putting into the compost?  I don’t have any anymore. Would be curious to know what happens to them in boiling water.

Answer by JZ: Here are my thoughts. Yes, cactus pads and fruits (tunas) may be added to your composing setup. They would be a source of nitrogen (greens) so you could mix in some dry leaves or paper leftovers, which are browns, with them.  Then decomposition will proceed nicely. You could twist off the fruit and pads with tongs.

You may, with gloved hands, using tongs to hold the pads,  chop them with a hatchet into small pieces about 1” pieces. This not necessary to do, but would speed the decomposition process.  Smaller organics decompose well / quicker.

Important caution – the moist pads and moist fruits will decompose fairly quickly, but the thorns will take longer, so always use a gloved hand when working with this compost blend until it is fully decomposed.

Answer by MR: Before you undertake composting all of them, you might want to offer some to folks who would be interested in either growing or eating them, because they are quite nutritious, both the leaf/stem pads and the fruit. The Master Growers and neighborhood association bulletin boards might be ways to get the word out. I’m not especially tech savvy, but I’m sure some of the other folks could recommend places to post that information.

However, if you just want to recycle them back to the earth from which they have come, the biggest challenge is how to handle them without becoming a pincushion yourself. What I’ve done is to rake them into a pile, rake or scoop the pile onto newspaper–double or triple layers–and either bury them in a shallow hole or trench, still covered with newspaper, or cover the entire pile with newspaper and then add other seasonal cleanup material and good soil, wetting everything as you go. It helps them to break down more quickly if you add some leaf mold to the whole batch. The pads that are still alive when covered with earth will have quite a lot of moisture in them and decompose surprisingly quickly. The needles and glochids, which are the little teeny guys clustered around each bunch of needles (the ones that are so hard to get out–hence the newspaper for protection) are pretty much pure silica, which is one of the fundamental minerals that all growing things need. So they break down very quickly also, and the fungi present in the leaf mold are especially good at decomposing them.

I’ve never tried putting them into a regular batch of hot compost because I like to handle my compost when I’m turning it to see how well things are proceeding, and I don’t want any surprises. And I’ve never used a tumbler, so that’s for someone else to tackle. But the earth will take them all back, free of charge, with just a bit of digging.

If you have a manufactured plastic compost bin you could consider moving it to a sunny location now for the winter months. You may enjoy reading our suggestions for composting in the desert.  See link in our menu.

Hope that this is helpful.   Get back if you have further questions.

Answer from JZ: Great to hear that you are getting started with your composting setup. Other colleagues may also respond to your question.  Here are my thoughts.

Old dead wood provides no useful nutrition for boring insects, those which may have been in your plum wood are most likely dead. My opinion is that you could safely use the plum twigs as bulking material.

If you are still concerned about the issue, then use the wood in your fireplace.

 There are many bulking sources in the desert: pine needles & cones, sticks and twigs in abundance.

Perhaps others may a have different information / opinion.

Answer by JH: If the borer attack was on an otherwise healthy tree and that caused the tree to die, then the wood can be composted. But pests tend to take advantage of stressed trees. If the borer attack occurred because the tree was already stressed (and possibly dying) from a fungal or other disease, be careful about composting the wood if your compost pile will not heat up to kill the pathogen which can lay dormant.

Answer by JZ: You might contact Walter Dods at Soilutions in So.Valley with your question: walter@soilutions.net. He might be able to take the diapers.  Other colleagues may also respond to your question.  Hope that this is helpful.

From original questioner: I did talk with Walter at Soilutions, thanks for the suggestion.  They are unable to take compostable diapers, not because they don’t compost well (he says they do) but that state regulations prohibit them from taking human waste. Thanks again for the tip though, and if anyone else has any suggestions I’d appreciate them!

Answer by JZ:  Great.  If you wanted to set up your own hot composting operation, then you might be able to add them  in your backyard. A well managed hot process will destroy pathogens. See “ hot composting” description  in our composting in the desert brochure.  You can find via our website menu under Composting Info/Desert Composting.

Answer by RR: Other Master Composters may also reply to your question, and their answers may vary from mine since composting is not only a science but also an art.

1)  As we like to say, anything that was once alive will decompose given the right conditions of air and moisture. Composting manure from carnivores and omnivores is your choice, not one that we endorse. As you listed those ingredients, they were all “once alive.” However, dog and cat waste can create an environment where potential human pathogens thrive. Since you are doing cold composting, this process will not kill those pathogens if they are present.  If you choose to compost your dog waste, please restrict your composting area to where you are growing only ornamentals and away from where you are growing vegetables.

2)  Pine straw and pine needles are the same thing, and they will decompose, just very slowly.  Pine needles are coated with a resin which is difficult for the microbes to penetrate, but they will eventually.  I compost pine needles, but in small quantities…as my wife likes to say, “everything in moderation.” Pine needles work better as a mulch, but be careful what you are mulching because they are also quite acidic.  They would be beneficial for mulching azaleas or blueberries, but I almost killed my iris one year when I used pine straw for mulch. I hope this helps.

Answer by JZ: Here are my comments in addition to RR's.  I agree with RR - dog manure should be decomposed separately, then used around ornamentals.

May I suggest that you moisturize any pit / trench before adding your organics, once buried, then cover the area with 3”- 5” of organic mulch - you could use pine needles. This will help keep moisture in that place so that microorganisms will be active. Pine needles may be shredded - this would increase the surface area - smaller decomposes better. Pine needles have a similar pH to coffee grounds - 6.5.  As they decompose the slight acidity would be neutralized.

Answer by JH: If you’re burying your materials, dog waste is ok to add. However, I would not recommend using any pet waste in a compost operation where the finished product is going on plants particularly vegetables and other consumables.

Likewise, pine needles can also be added, and they are suitable for any compost operation above or below ground.

Answer by JZ:  My thoughts: The only organic aspect of an egg shell would be the albumin lining of the shell - presumably that’s the reference to the “ food value “ attracting vermin?  If shells are dried then crushed, then distributed ( mixed in ) a composting operation, then I doubt that there would be a scent that vermin could identify.

There may possibly be some Salmonella on egg shells. But you would have to ingest or get the compost into a lesion in order for the organism to be have an impact in your body.   Don’t eat your compost.

How does one ID “dangerous bacteria “ in a compost operation ?   Any microorganism might cause a problem in humans by getting into the right place at right time and/or if a person has a compromised immune system. Common sense would be to always sprinkle a pile before turning, avoid getting compost on mucous membranes, hand scrubbing & washing garden produce.

The quoted statements, in my opinion, are not science-based, but anecdotes.  In trying to be safe (?) some people come up with unique statements that may be difficult to prove and / or dispute.

When egg shell questions come up in a basic class, my response is to dry & crush the shells, then add.  If a home composter is wary of that approach, then I suggest that a person further research the topic to satisfy their need and / or If some organic is bothersome to you, just leave it out of your composting operation.

These unique / anecdotal questions come up in a composting class - some people do accept an answer that is science based.

Answer by JH: I can only provide anecdotal information because I don't know the science, but I routinely toss unrinsed eggshells in my compost and don't notice any problems. My chickens help turn the compost and consume the bugs, and the finished compost often goes into the chicken run - chickens are fine.

Answer by JZ: Good for you.  Excellent that you are recycling your organic materials. What we put in any composting operation is organic material, that which was once alive.  Homestead composting need not be a “nit picking” or “hair splitting” exercise, as some people would make it.

You may add the same organics to a hot or cold process setup. Meat / dairy are often listed as leave outs, because their scent may attract critters, but as they are organic, they will decompose.  What goes in, what gets left out of your bin is your personal choice.

Crushed egg shells are mostly calcium which is inorganic, but as they disintegrate, then the calcium is added  / blended in the bin and eventually  will be added to your garden soil. Egg shell may contain salmonella bacteria, which is already present in most amended soils. If you are concerned about that you may boil your egg shells for three minutes, then dry, then crush, then add. If there is salmonella in any compost it won’t be of harm to you as long as you do not ingest the compost or get it in / on a skin wound. Common sense !

Let us know if this is helpful and if you have further questions.  Compost on !

Answer by JZ: Agree feathers may be added as a nitrogen source and are sold as a bagged product. Though your pillows may now be quite low in nitrogen. Probably be more carbonaceous after years of aging. I do not have a particular experience with them, but if I had some, then I would chop them (if needed) and drop them in my setup.

Answer by JH: The only experience with feathers I have is composting litter from the chicken coop. Pine shavings, poop and feathers - they broke down quickly but there was never a pile of them.

Answer by WR: I throw my apricot and cherry pits into my compost. They do take quite a while to decompose, but they will eventually break down, especially in compost that doesn’t get hot (like mine). What I do is, after the compost is finished, I put it through a screen (with about 1/4 inch mesh). This will take out the pits, twigs, avocado peels, etc. that haven’t broken down completely. Just throw those back in to the next batch of working compost. If you don’t want to bother to screen your compost, you might want to avoid putting the pits into the compost or hand-pick-out the worst offenders. They won’t really hurt anything but will end up in your garden or wherever you use the compost. Or, I guess you can soak/boil your pits and grind them. I’ve never tried this but, hmm, might be interesting. You might want to do a Google search for “screening compost” (without the quotes) to see some pictures, etc. about that. Your compost is “finished” when it smells good, the original stuff is unrecognizable (except the big woody things you’ll be removing), is completely cool, and looks like rich crumbly earth. If it still has any sliminess, smells, etc. it should work a little longer.

It sounds like your compost is rich in nitrogen-rich things: food scraps, coffee, tea. If it starts smelling bad or is slimy you might want to balance it with carbon-rich things such as dry leaves. I’ll attach a flyer that lists nitrogen vs. carbon things to compost.

Answer by JZ: It’s good to learn of your excellent project!
1. CAFO manure and mixed-in urine would be a high nitrogen material, you could add an equal volume / weight of a carbon eg. wood chips, straw, shredded cardboard / paper, saw dust, dried leaves. There might be a local municipality which has wood chips easily available(?). If this is a big operation you may need a front-end loader. You could set up wind rows and do a “hot” composting process.
2. You need to find out what (all) medications are being given to the animals. Metabolites may end up in the urine and manure. Once determined, you would need to research how these particular meds are biodegraded. There are a few broad leaf herbicides eg. Picrolam and Aminopyralid that may get into the food stream of the animals, if the hay / alfalfa have been sprayed by the farmers that grow them. All that you can do is inquire if the farmer used them. They persist thru the animals gut and the composting process, then may contaminate the compost. This is a long shot, but you should be aware of the possibility.
3. CAFO animals may be fed salt, which may end up in the manure and in the compost end product. Our desert soil is already “salty”, so you would have to test the end product for percentage salt before adding to garden soil.
4. Organic material that has gone thru a hot composting process should be screened and set aside to cure for at least one month. This is the cold phase of the process which finalizes the production of humus. Then you could take samples of the finished product for lab testing for salt, residual meds, etc. There are labs that do this type of testing.
5. I do not have expertise in large scale worm composting, but I think that in your area a requirement will be be a set up that protects the worm bedding from temperatures that exceed 80F. Your set up would need to designed for easy harvesting of the castings. There is expertise out there on large red worm harvesting. You will eventually find it.
6. Some local worms farmers are listed under Worm Sources in our website menu under Resources. You might contact them and then do a site visit.
7. The magazine “BioCycle” (BioCycle.net) is a publication which has articles that would be of help to you.
8. Yes, biochar is an excellent bacterial growth stimulator.
9. You could take the compost facility operators course coming up in Oct.:
http://www.recyclenewmexico.com/cert_compost_october.htm
This course is repeated a few times per year. You would meet a many people who are involved in large scale composting in NM. Good place to network.

Please let me know if this has been of help to you. You are welcome to phone me after 7PM. This is a long discussion. There are many variables that could be discussed. You have an excellent idea. Keep up.

Answer by JH: This is a great idea and you are asking all the right questions before getting started.

I also have a couple questions. How much manure will you be adding each week and will you add it daily or at some other interval? This will help determine size of and number of bins required.

Also, will you be mixing the manure with other materials, i.e., fall leaves or other browns such as straw?

To try and answer your questions, this type of system you picture is ideal and it does not need to have a concrete floor. In fact it is better to construct the walls directly on the ground. It is also not necessary to turn the piles but you will want to cover them (and weigh the cover to prevent it blowing away) to keep the manure from drying out. The pile does need to start off with and maintain sufficient moisture - about 50%.

You also will need to add some type of bulking material (pine cones, twigs, spent plant stalks and such) to keep good air flow in the pile as it decomposes and settles. Insufficient air flow will cause the pile to go anaerobic which will make for a nasty odor. With that said however, this problem is easily remedied by turning the pile and adding bulking material to improve the airflow.

Again, the pile does not need to be turned. The purpose of turning compost is to encourage a good mix of ingredients to enhance their breakdown. It is also necessary if you are hot composting. This process requires you to turn the cold outer edges of the pile into the center, add greens (aka nitrogen aka manure), moisten and cover. The hot process enables the pile to reach a temp of 150 or more for a period of days. When it cools down below 130 (or approx every 2-3 weeks), the pile can be turned to heat it up again and the process continues until the compost is finished.

This takes roughly 3 months or longer with a larger pile. The minimum size required to hot compost is a cubic yard. I suspect your piles will be much larger than that.

If you do not want to turn the piles, it is not necessary but this method is referred to as cold composting because you will not be generating much heat over a sustained period of time.

It might take 12-18 months or longer to achieve finished compost via this method but clearly it is the less labor intensive approach. And if you are continually adding fresh manure to a pile, this will also slow down the process.

If you are only using manure, I am guessing you want to be careful about how large your piles are. A massive pile of such a rich nitrogen source might catch fire from the center.

We have an excellent compost calculator in the resources section of our website. This would be helpful to you if you are wondering what quantities you need if you are mixing the manure with other items.

Additionally I encourage you to locate a compost class to attend. Our class schedule is also available on our website.

Answer by JZ: Other of my colleagues may also reply to your questions.  Excellent project !

• Ideally manures should be composted using the hot process.  See our brochure for specific guidelines- intensive/hot.

Ideally the bottom of any composting setup should drain excess water onto the soil, not on concrete.

There is no need to build an understructure.  The first addition to an empty bin is 12” of coarse bulking material spread over the whole bottom surface. Finger size sticks, twigs, pine cones, corn cobs worm well. Then continue to add bulking as you build the pile. This decreases compaction of wet organics and provides for convective air flow throughout the pile.

• The cinder block setup is just fine with the front access open for your wheel barrow or tractor -  just the way it is pictured.

• You would decrease evaporation moisture from the pile by covering the whole thing with a tarp, when you are finished working with it. Then put rocks around the edge of tarp to keep it in place.  Covering the pile will also decrease flies and other flying insects.

• Hot process guidelines are in the brochure.  Your pile temp should reach 130 -150 F in about 3 days, then allow it to process for 7-14 days at that temperature. Then turn and churn it, repeating the same process until humus is formed.  Sure you could use a front end loader to turn the pile. It is not necessary to turn every 3 days.

• Yes, sprinkle the pile before turning it to keep down the spores that may rise up.  Maintain 50-60% moisture throughout the process.

You would be welcome to attend any of our free classes anytime.

Let us know if this helps / if you have more questions.    All the best.   You are doing a fine thing.  Keep up.

Additional Answer by JZ: Forgot to mention residual persistent herbicides which may be in the feed which the horses ate and will persist through their digestion and persist through the composting process.  So you have to go all the way back to the farmer who grew the horses’ food and find if broadleaf herbicides were used on the field.  This is a long discussion.  I would refer you to the link on our website.

Answer from JZ: Your question will be received by a few master composter colleagues, who may also respond to your question. Great that you have access to a variety of vegetarian animal manures. Fresh manures are high in nitrogen, they are not necessarily acidic.  You are correct it is useful to compost any manure before adding it to garden soil, so that it is decomposed to dark colored humus, which looks similar coffee grounds when the decomposition process is complete.

A good suggestion is to compost any manure using hot process composting, which is described in our desert composting brochure available via our website menu, Desert Composting under Composting Info.  The hot process will decompose any residual weed seeds and reduce any pathogens.  Your straw bale bin setup would work well for composting manures and the drum would be fine too.

You would be welcome to attend any of our free to public basic composting classes which are listed under Activities in the website menu.

Hope that this is helpful.   Let us know if you have further questions.

Answer by JZ: Other colleagues may also answer your question.  Here are my thoughts. Animal products including dairy, meat and vegetarian animal manures are all organic, so they will  ecompose in a composting setup. They do not interfere with the decomposition process. Note that both are often included on "do not add" lists,  mostly because they may have (temporary) odors which might attract scavengers (animals) to the setup. The choice to add these products is up to the individual home composter.

So meat, dairy and manures may be added to a setup in the same manner as other organics.  Chop, cut, shred any organics before adding to setup. Add coarse bulking material as you build, then maintain 50% moisture at all times - similar to the moisture content of freshly brewed coffee grounds.

Alternatively meat and dairy products may be added to a Bokashi bucket - closed setup.  See Bokashi under Composting Info in our website menu.

Hope that this is helpful.  Let us know if you have further questions.  Best.

Answer by JH: Food in any state of freshness or decomposition is suitable for composting. We do not recommend animal flesh, dairy products, nuts, oils and such due to high fat content and/or because they attract unwanted scavengers. Lists of what to use or to avoid are two of the posters that can be downloaded via our Handouts page available under Resources in our website main menu.

Answer by JH: Interesting question. I found this from la state u extension and the same applies to pecan leaves: Walnut leaves can be composted because the juglone toxin breaks down when exposed to air, water and bacteria. The toxic effect can be degraded in two to four weeks. … However, composting the wood chips for a minimum of six months allows the chemical to break down to a safe level even for plants sensitive to juglone.

Answer by JZ: Good to hear about your composting efforts.  I have no personal experience in composting juglone containing leaves. My sense is that the decomposition(composting) process will biodegrade the juglone. 

Answer by JZ: Here are my thoughts: Pet waste may be composted separately, then ideally the end product could be used around ornamental (non edible) plants. So then you’d not have to be concerned about pet pathogen transfer issues. 

Actually a container in the soil with a lid, would be a fine moisture preserving method. If the container top receives abundant sunshine, then you might cover the top with a few layers of cardboard or a few layers of shade fabric, then hold in place with a rock. Use a piece of plastic as a drape to cover the top of the inside the bin contents, this will decrease evaporative loss.  Then put the lid on the container.

A suitable container, of any size with a lid, is described on our website.  See Homemade Bins under Composting Info (Bucket in a Hole).

An above ground bin placed in the shade or covered with a few layers of shade fabric would work for you too. Once again the end product of pet manure compost should be safely used only on ornamental plants. A suitable bin of any size may be made from a trash can.  (Again, see Homemade Bins.) 

Follow the directions on pages 5-7 of this brochure: docs.nmcomposters.org/composting-in-the-desert-2018.pdf

So pick a container, get started, then you will learn what works for you.  Let us know if you have questions.

Answer by MR: I’m replying also because several years ago I was confronted with a similar situation to yours. My soils aren’t shallow, nor are we on a hillside, but I wanted to eliminate smells because we have a working farm and none of our neighbors farm any more. Instead they have planted their agricultural fields to lawn, gotten rid of their animals, and suddenly they wanted everyone around them to behave like suburbanites also. I wanted some way to quickly decompose our dog and cat waste with no smells and no risk of pathogens infiltrating our high water table. So I used a modified bokashi bucket system, similar to what JZ is suggesting. I simply cut out the bottom of a round 5-gallon bucket, sunk it in the ground about 6″ deep near some young seedling trees I was planting to establish a hedgerow (you could fertilize already existing shrubs, as JZ has suggested), and placed large logs around it as a disguise. I put a large stone on top, easily removed when I added my weekly deposit of poop, and sprinkled bokashi bran on top. Inside I had fashioned a plate with a brick to keep the oxygen out. There was no smell, almost no yuck factor (as our link amusingly refers to it), and to my surprise, the waste largely turned to liquid fertilizer and sank into the ground. The surrounding trees and shrubs have grown amazingly quickly, despite our ongoing near-record heat and drought, and despite the fact that I don’t irrigate the hedgerow at all. It exists entirely on rainfall and groundwater.

The fact that bokashi will speed up the decomposition process means you don’t have to leave the bucket in place for extended periods of time, nor do you have to dig an extremely deep hole. Just pull the bucket out when it has reached a comfortable state of fullness and the contents are well-fermented (usually 2-3 weeks after the last deposit). Then cover the older waste, place the bucket in a new hole, and proceed as before. You don’t need to add any liquid, and the bokashi bran is a very inexpensive investment. And you can make your own to save even more money.

Answer by JH: As a cat owner I too have been interested in this subject so I’ve spent some time researching your question.

Toxoplasmosis is reported to be killed at 122-140 degrees F for a couple minutes. This temperature range can easily be accomplished with a hot composting method as set forth in resource materials available at nmcomposters.org. But can you be sure that 100% of the pet waste was thus exposed? Perhaps so but it is not recommended to use composted pet waste on or in the vicinity of a vegetable garden.

Options? If using clay litter or any litter with preservatives or other chemicals, it’s probably best to toss in a paper bag into the garbage where it might end up in the commercial-grade composter. There are many plant based litters available now and I would recommend pet waste with one of these litters being buried away from vegetables. Perhaps exposure to sunlight for a period of time prior to burying might also be considered provided that it is kept away from pets and humans.

One thing to never do with pet waste is to dispose of in sewage or septic systems.

I hope this helps, but if you find an authoritative source with definitive recommendations, please do share with us.

Answer by JZ: Your questions will be received by a few of may colleagues who may also respond. Great to hear about your composting efforts.  JH has already responded to you. Here are my thoughts:

Clumping in your tumbler may be decreased by adding a small amount of coarse bulking material from time to time. It may be helpful to read about Tumbler Bins under Composting Info in our main menu.

The Bokashi bucket is a fermentation method. The Bokashi folks are saying that the acidity produced in the method will disable the Taxoplasma gondi. So then you could add the contents of your bucket to your tumbler or an in-the-soil covered container, then allow the decomposition process to continue.  See Homemade Bins under Composting Info.

When in soil composting containers become full of decomposed material, then you have options. You may scoop out the finished compost and use in garden, then start refilling the container with organics OR  you may pull up the container and allow the finished compost to drop into the hole and stay in place, thus amending the soil on that spot.

After that if you are still concerned about T. gondi, then use that compost on only ornamentals.

Municipal water in NM is, I think treated so that pathogens are not a concern.

Another option for cat manure – consider a well managed hot process composting setup. Properly maintained this process will disable pathogens.

‎docs.nmcomposters.org/composting-in-the-desert-2018.pdf   See pages 3-4.

Let us know if the responses have been helpful and if you have more questions.

Response from Questioner: Both your answers were helpful thank you. I think I'll start adding the pine cat litter that I use to my compost bin and just not use it for the raised garden bed (which is the only place we have vegetables). I'll either keep throwing away the feces or maybe look into in ground pet waste composters just for them. Thank you!

Answer by JZ:  Vitex trimmings are plant material which will decompose in your composting setup.

Chop them into small pieces then add them.   Compost on !

Answer by MR:  I generally agree with John that it would be perfectly safe to add some trimmings into your basic composting setup. But you didn't mention the quantity of trimmings you will be working with, or offer any details of your "pile." So here are a few other considerations. If you have only one Vitex tree with the usual amount of winter-pruned trimmings, those could easily be chopped by hand into a simple mulch, to be used beneath the same tree/shrub. They will break down fairly rapidly without needing to be turned into the soil and will ultimately benefit the tree and the soil both. They won't do any harm to your neighbors.

If you have a larger quantity, these could be incorporated into a larger woodchip composting setup using chips that are easily obtained--often for free--from tree-trimming operations. I'll be giving a free lecture on Saturday, June 18, at Gutierrez-Hubbell House on composting with woodchips. Details can be found on the website, or just email me with questions.

The longer your trimmings are exposed to the fungal decomposers in your composting setup, the more complete will be the breakdown of the active chemicals (which were also used by sailors to diminish urges on long sea voyages, until fairly recent times). So don't be in too big a hurry to get the compost into your tomato bed. Not that it will do you any harm, but woody materials can take nitrogen that might be better used by most of our annual crops. Forest floors take longer to create than compost from a tumbler, or the average mouldering compost pile.

Answer by WR: I've had great success without a bin. Right, I just dump in and stir occasionally. I do have to be careful not to put in weed seeds, Bermuda grass, virusy tomatoes since the pile doesn't get hot enough to kill those things. I've had good redworms in the pile that showed up on their own. It's important that the pile be in a good shade. Otherwise too much watering is required to keep it moist. I haven't had problems with critters or neighbors. In winter I sometimes rather ignore it, except for continually adding kitchen scraps. I water it with garden hose in spring,  fall, summer but it doesn't take a lot to keep it moist if I do it pretty regularly. I'm going to copy this to our compost questions group for their input. I know that JZ and others think a bin, or at least a pile with a good cover, is much better in our dry climate so I hope they will give you their point of view. I'm glad you plan to compost here. You might consider taking some of our free composting classes to learn more about composting in our climate. Best of luck! 

Answer by PB: The only thing I would add is that you have much better moisture control using this method if you cover the pile with an old piece of carpet, canvas or cardboard.

Response by Original Questioner: Thanks to you both for your replies! Interestingly, our only problem with our compost in CA was that it was often too wet. I wonder if the climate here might actually compliment our composting practice since we have an abundance of kitchen scraps as we eat so many vegetables and fruits. I think we'll start with a pile in shade and add a cover if necessary. And yes, I may take a class soon!

Answer by JH: Rachel, if you find this approach isn't satisfactory, check out our Composting in the Desert pamphlet.  It includes instructions for the wire bin method among other helpful tips.

Response by JZ:   Covering a pile not only helps retain moisture, but also decreases flying insects!   Keep up.

Answer by JZ: Other colleagues may respond to your question.  Here are my thoughts. You have a fine idea.  You have a few safe choices.

A pile of wood chips would be mostly carbon.  Moist wood chips alone, would decompose very slowly.  This would be a cold composting process.

The setup which you describe, up would, most likely not generate appreciable and sustainable heat  because it lacks a nitrogen source - greens. Spontaneous combustion may occur in a hot process composting set up if uniform moisture is not retained.  See an article about this via our website menu under Composting Info/Spontaneous Combustion.

Another possibility for you might be a Hugelkultur - type mound covered with soil or wood products buried in the soil. More info. on this method may be found with a google search. NMRC has training for large scale composters: Recycling and Composting Facility Operator Certification Courses - New Mexico Recycling Coalition

You are welcome to attend one of our basics classes.  See Activities/Classes on our website.

Hope that this is helpful.

Answer by RR: While I agree with John, one thing that might substantiate your fire concern is if a significant portion of your wood chips are from green trees (as opposed to dead trees).  There may be enough nitrogen in these green chips to mix with the dead chips and other debris to produce enough heat to be dangerous in as big an area as 20’ x 50’. If you don’t have training in large scale composting, as John referred to below, you could get into a dangerous situation.

I don’t know how much transportation you are willing to use, but the Soil Amendment Facility on Albuquerque’s west mesa, run by the Albuquerque Bernalillo County Water Utility Authority, will take your material at no cost.  I’ve included Joe Bailey’s (facility manager) email address here for your reference. He may know of some place closer to you that would be more convenient. He has also got some experience using Hugelkultur-type composting.

Also, Genevieve Morgan (email address above) runs the state’s large scale composting certification course, and she may know of some place close to you that might be of use.

Best of luck.

Answer by JZ: Great to hear about your interest. Vermicomposting is a fine idea. The composting recipe is universal, but composting management is influenced by climate.  At your elevation with cooler temps, your outdoor composting setup may be a bit slower in general,  especially in the winter months, but will perk up in the warmer months. My setups are at 5,300 ft. elevation – no problem.

I would encourage you to read about Desert Composting under Composting Info in our website menu.  Also see other informational selections there.

Get organized, then compost on.   Let us know if you have questions.